Finally found that my oil leak (replaced the drain plug gasket and oil 5 times) problem is a hairline crack in the oil pan immediately adjacent to the drain plug. The plug threads into a thickened (re-enforced) area of the pan and immediately at the edge of this thickened area starts a hairline crack that radiates outward for about 3/8 th of an inch. It is possible that the manufacturer welded this thickened area into the pan and the weld junction is either failing are developing a stress crack.
I propose to clean the area with a wire wheel and then hit it with the wire feed welder. Ground strap will be within a few inches, however I will disconnect the battery just in case. Wife will stand by with a huge fire extinguisher. Car is up on a hoist.
Removing the pan is the other alternative, but lots of exhaust pipe and cross bracing in the way. Probably about 2 hours work.
Ivan Vegvary wrote: > Finally found that my oil leak (replaced the drain plug gasket and oil 5 > times) problem is a hairline crack in the oil pan immediately adjacent to > the drain plug. > The plug threads into a thickened (re-enforced) area of the pan and > immediately at the edge of this thickened area starts a hairline crack that > radiates outward for about 3/8 th of an inch. It is possible that the > manufacturer welded this thickened area into the pan and the weld junction > is either failing are developing a stress crack.
> I propose to clean the area with a wire wheel and then hit it with the wire > feed welder. Ground strap will be within a few inches, however I will > disconnect the battery just in case. Wife will stand by with a huge fire > extinguisher. Car is up on a hoist.
> Removing the pan is the other alternative, but lots of exhaust pipe and > cross bracing in the way. Probably about 2 hours work.
> All comments, suggestions, warnings appreciated.
> Ivan Vegvary
My suggestion is simple. Go to the dealer, buy new oil pan & gasket, and GET BUSY.
Chances are if you weld it, you'll munge the threads and the plug won't seal. That's my best guess, anyway.
Had a good friend who wanted to change the oil pump, but didn't want the exercise of dropping the pan. He knew where the pump was, cut a hole in the pan, removed and replaced pump and pickup, welded the pan back together. I don't know what he did about getting the pan gasket too hot.
-- ______________________________ Keep the whole world singing . . . . DanG (remove the sevens) dgriff...@7cox.net
> Finally found that my oil leak (replaced the drain plug gasket > and oil 5 times) problem is a hairline crack in the oil pan > immediately adjacent to the drain plug. > The plug threads into a thickened (re-enforced) area of the pan > and immediately at the edge of this thickened area starts a > hairline crack that radiates outward for about 3/8 th of an > inch. It is possible that the manufacturer welded this > thickened area into the pan and the weld junction is either > failing are developing a stress crack.
> I propose to clean the area with a wire wheel and then hit it > with the wire feed welder. Ground strap will be within a few > inches, however I will disconnect the battery just in case. > Wife will stand by with a huge fire extinguisher. Car is up on > a hoist.
> Removing the pan is the other alternative, but lots of exhaust > pipe and cross bracing in the way. Probably about 2 hours work.
> All comments, suggestions, warnings appreciated.
> Finally found that my oil leak (replaced the drain plug gasket and oil 5 > times) problem is a hairline crack in the oil pan immediately adjacent to > the drain plug. > The plug threads into a thickened (re-enforced) area of the pan and > immediately at the edge of this thickened area starts a hairline crack > that radiates outward for about 3/8 th of an inch. It is possible that > the manufacturer welded this thickened area into the pan and the weld > junction is either failing are developing a stress crack.
> I propose to clean the area with a wire wheel and then hit it with the > wire feed welder. Ground strap will be within a few inches, however I > will disconnect the battery just in case. Wife will stand by with a huge > fire extinguisher. Car is up on a hoist.
> Removing the pan is the other alternative, but lots of exhaust pipe and > cross bracing in the way. Probably about 2 hours work.
> All comments, suggestions, warnings appreciated.
> Ivan Vegvary
I have in fact done this repair to a few cars over the years, and done so two different ways.
My preferred method is to fabricate a doubler that includes a new drain plug, and bond it over the leaking area leaving a wide margin everywhere possible to support the bond. Yes, it has to be extremely clean, and grease free. But it has always served me well.
The second is welding. But the only time I remember welding and oil pan "on" the vehicle, after just a few seconds of welding, I got an extremely hard POP from the combustion gasses on the inside. It bloated the metal pan, and could have been very dangerous. I don't recommend it, and would never try it again myself.
The third would be removal, and repair or replace as desired.
Sounds like a fatigue crack near the weld area. I prefer to braze this type of problem where you have sheet metal and cracks but a good weld is acceptable. Biggest problem is that no matter what you do, the heat from the weld will liquify the oil and let it drain down into the weld area. Yields crappy welds, not to mention the fun of hydrocarbons on red hot metal.
You may get by with the wire feed on the car but a permanent fix involves pulling the pan. :(
Ivan Vegvary wrote: > Finally found that my oil leak (replaced the drain plug gasket and oil 5 > times) problem is a hairline crack in the oil pan immediately adjacent to > the drain plug. > The plug threads into a thickened (re-enforced) area of the pan and > immediately at the edge of this thickened area starts a hairline crack that > radiates outward for about 3/8 th of an inch. It is possible that the > manufacturer welded this thickened area into the pan and the weld junction > is either failing are developing a stress crack.
> I propose to clean the area with a wire wheel and then hit it with the wire > feed welder. Ground strap will be within a few inches, however I will > disconnect the battery just in case. Wife will stand by with a huge fire > extinguisher. Car is up on a hoist.
> Removing the pan is the other alternative, but lots of exhaust pipe and > cross bracing in the way. Probably about 2 hours work.
> All comments, suggestions, warnings appreciated.
"Maxwell" wrote: (clip) after just a few seconds of welding, I got an
extremely hard
> POP from the combustion gasses on the inside. It bloated the metal pan, > and could have been very dangerous. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I know of a welding shop that welds gas tanks after running the exhaust from a small engine into the tank for an hour or so. Another idea might be to shove in several handfulls of dry ice. The CO2 will force virtually all the air out. CO2 is heavier than air, so if any air remains, it would not be at the bottom.
> "Maxwell" wrote: (clip) after just a few seconds of welding, I got an > extremely hard >> POP from the combustion gasses on the inside. It bloated the metal pan, >> and could have been very dangerous. (clip) > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > I know of a welding shop that welds gas tanks after running the exhaust > from a small engine into the tank for an hour or so. Another idea might > be to shove in several handfulls of dry ice. The CO2 will force virtually > all the air out. CO2 is heavier than air, so if any air remains, it would > not be at the bottom.
I have heard that, but never had any first had experience with anyone that actually did. I would be afraid of it. I would hate to find out the hard way, that it was just a legend. I have welded gas and diesel tanks, but only after flushing them with water, then filling them completely with water, leaving a bubble only where I wanted to weld. Even at that, I have had them huff a bit.
Have you had the opportunity to witness the exhaust purge technique first hand Leo?
"Leo Lichtman" <l.licht...@worldnet.att.net> wrote: > "Maxwell" wrote: (clip) after just a few seconds of welding, I got an > extremely hard > > POP from the combustion gasses on the inside. It bloated the metal pan, > > and could have been very dangerous. (clip) > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > I know of a welding shop that welds gas tanks after running the exhaust > from a small engine into the tank for an hour or so. Another idea might > be to shove in several handfulls of dry ice. The CO2 will force > virtually all the air out. CO2 is heavier than air, so if any air > remains, it would not be at the bottom.
Hum. Maybe you could just fill it up with Argon (heaver than air) (or 75/25) and get the same effect??? I'd trust a hose from an Argon tank to correctly remove the O2 from the tank before I'd try a stunt like dry ice or engine exhaust. Shit, a 2 stroke mixes the combustible fuel with the incoming air and pumps some of it out the exhaust on every cycle. Fill your gas tank with the exhaust from a 2 stroke and you would be asking for trouble when you started to weld. I wouldn't try anything like that without the correct knowledge of all the chemistry and risks and the correct tools like maybe an O2 meter at hand to verify what was in the tank.
Checking a page on the specific gravity of gases, I see some nice gases like Butane, Propane, ozone and nitrous oxide are all heaver than Argon and CO2. Yeah, that would be nice. Push out the O2 but leave the tank full of butane, propane, ozone and nitrous oxide (close cousin to nitro in chemical make up). I don't know if O2 in those forms can help the butane burn under heat, but I wouldn't be the one to bet my life it couldn't.
Personally, I wouldn't go anywhere near a welding job and tanks of highly combustible material. :) I'll let the "real" welders do that crap.
"Maxwell" wrote: (clip) then filling them completely with water, > leaving a bubble only where I wanted to weld. Even at that, I have had > them huff a bit.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I once tried gas welding some cracks around the petcock on the bottom of a Harley tank. I filled it with water, and propped it up on my bench, bottom side up. It blew. The gas cap came off, and water shot out the neck, drenching me and everything around. I figured out afterwards what had happened: water dripped put the vent hole in the gas cap, so the water level dropped slowly. Some gasoline floated on top of the water, and then ignited. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Have you had the opportunity to witness the exhaust purge technique first > hand Leo?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ No. I was told by someone who seemed to know what he was talking about. Still, only hearsay.
"Curt Welch" wrote: (clip) I'd trust a hose from an Argon tank to > correctly remove the O2 from the tank before I'd try a stunt like dry ice > or engine exhaust. Shit, a 2 stroke mixes the combustible fuel with the > incoming air and pumps some of it out the exhaust on every cycle. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "Stunt?" CO2 gas is what is produced when dry ice sublimates. It is just as non-combustible as your argon. And I never said anything about using a 2-stroke engine. Did you throw that in just so you could argue?
>> "Maxwell" wrote: (clip) after just a few seconds of welding, I got an >> extremely hard >>> POP from the combustion gasses on the inside. It bloated the metal pan, >>> and could have been very dangerous. (clip) >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> I know of a welding shop that welds gas tanks after running the exhaust >> from a small engine into the tank for an hour or so. Another idea might >> be to shove in several handfulls of dry ice. The CO2 will force >> virtually all the air out. CO2 is heavier than air, so if any air >> remains, it would not be at the bottom.
> I have heard that, but never had any first had experience with anyone that > actually did. I would be afraid of it. I would hate to find out the hard > way, that it was just a legend. I have welded gas and diesel tanks, but > only after flushing them with water, then filling them completely with > water, leaving a bubble only where I wanted to weld. Even at that, I have > had them huff a bit.
> Have you had the opportunity to witness the exhaust purge technique first > hand Leo?
While not pertinent to what I am doing, standard procedure for pulling service stations out of the ground is to place enough dry ice on the bottom to displace all the combustibles. Takes several hours for the ice to release the gasses. Proof is by testing for hydrocarbons at the top opening. Until tested clear, you are not allowed to put a chain around the tank or make contact with anything made of steel (spark avoidance). After tank is cleared you can start dismantling the attached piping and pull the tank. Have done many, many of these in the past.
